“We are running out of road”: Embracing the challenge of change in business
James Payne completed the School of System Change Basecamp programme in 2020, and is now the Associate Director of Transformational Strategies at Forum for the Future. He shares his systems learning journey, and how Basecamp was the programme that inspired the Compass for Just & Regenerative Business report, in conversation with Dr. Anna Birney, Director of the School of System Change.
The ‘Compass for Just & Regenerative Business’ report advocates for a mindset shift, from ‘business-as-usual’ towards a just and regenerative future. Bringing together a social justice lens with regenerative practice to provide a ‘Business Transformation Compass’ takes a step further than even some of the most vision-led practitioners at the edge of sustainability. But it’s exactly this kind of discomfort and collaborative thinking that we need to be embracing, according to James, lead author of the Compass.
“We’re talking about trying to spark a critical shift to a just and regenerative mindset. So, nothing short of a paradigm change in business. And that sounds very grandiose!… [But] while [dominant mindsets] made our current industrial society possible, fundamentally when you look at the inequality crisis, or geosphere breakdown — we’re running out of road. Sooner or later, those approaches and those mindsets, it’s clear that they’re not fit for purpose.”
What was the moment that sparked the mindset shift behind this idea and the development of the report?
In early 2020, James joined the School of System Change Basecamp programme. Today in October 2021, he tells how the Compass would never have come about without it. Basecamp, “it’s not just ‘here’s the theory’, it’s actually helping you to apply it in the real world. And that’s what business people need.”
In conversation with Anna, James goes on to discuss the value of the course’s contributors grounding system change theory in real practice; a ‘flagging’ technique to make new ways of thinking more approachable for business; the action-inquiry approach that has transformed his work; and the dive into collaboration and Lewis Deep Democracy that has seeded a new bravery to embrace the challenge of change, and sparked the launch of the Business Transformation Compass.
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“If you’re up for really opening your mind and hearing concepts that are way beyond what you may have learned in business school, I think it’s an incredible opportunity for development.”- James Payne, Basecamp alum
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Watch the conversation on YouTube, or read the full transcript below.
A: We’ve got the Business Transformation Compass launching later this month and we thought we’d have a quick conversation around how and where did it arise from.
How did the learning you’ve done over the last couple of years influence this great report? Where did it all start?
J: Going back to the Spring of last year, I was lucky enough to get onto the European Basecamp that was happening in Brussels. It was just an incredible experience. Particularly the breadth of systems change approaches and ways of thinking that were shared. So just really a sense of huge richness of input. But then also the ability to really get into depth — so even with frameworks that I was familiar with or approaches that I was familiar with, such as Three Horizons, actually having Bill Sharpe presenting them and in the room explaining it just opened up a whole other level of understanding. It was really incredible.
I think the other thing that really jumped out from Basecamp and being part of the School of System Change was this approach of holding questions and holding an inquiry question. That was a way of learning that I think, in classical, traditional learning — isn’t the approach that’s encouraged.
That questioning, being in the questioning mode and that being embodied in the way Basecamp was run was really powerful.
A: What was your inquiry question then? Did this seed start at the Basecamp?
J: My inquiry question was around how to make business strategy, and in particular business sustainability strategy, more systemic. It was a really, really broad question — and to be honest, I struggled with it. I think the way it was framed was perhaps almost too broad to be able to get your hands around.
But during the course of Basecamp, it evolved. Pamela Mang from the Regenesis Institute ran a session on regenerative thinking and regenerative development. And there was something about the way that she held that session… there was something about the wisdom that she brought and almost her bearing on it in that session. The way that she explained the concepts — it was really incredible because she wasn’t just explaining concepts in a heavy, analytical way. The way that she ran the session spoke to her practice and spoke the very concepts that she was trying to explain. The way that she embodied that was really, really impactful. It made a big impression on me.
I think because of that, that really planted another seed. Then because of the pandemic that struck, I ended up having some time off and decided to do a little personal regenerative inquiry. I think on those weeks I was just soaking things up and percolating all the time after. And then later that year in November time, I went away on a week-long meditation retreat and some of that thinking came together — I just had this idea of a compass. It just sort of came to me, I wasn’t trying to brainstorm or anything. It just — having a bit more space to reflect — it emerged. It was very rough, but I think if I hadn’t had that space and time earlier in the year because of the pandemic, and the approach that had been shared with me at Basecamp, I’m not sure that it would have ever come through.
A: So there’s something about seeding an idea, and then continually going on that learning journey.
So what was it about Pamela’s session, or even Bill Sharpe’s session — what were some of those seeds? What were some of the concepts you wanted to pursue and take further?
J: Yeah, I think certainly with [Bill Sharpe’s] Three Horizons, there’s this idea of holding to this ‘third horizon vision’ and getting really really clear. Having a sense of the future you want to create is quite visionary. But recognising that that vision will be quite difficult maybe for people who are in our current way of being to embrace perhaps, if you don’t have that visionary view.
So the Compass has this guiding star of justice and regeneration and I think simultaneously being able to hold that guiding star, but also start with where you are, start with the first horizon and the current reality. And understand how you navigate — the change to to get close to that vision, or that guiding star. So going deeper into that framework was really helpful.
I think, with regenerative development, the very concept of regeneration and the idea, the way that was explained, and the focus on potential and that just and regenerative is at the very edge of thinking, when it comes to mainstream sustainability.
A: Why do you think just and regenerative is at the edge of sustainability — why is it more systemic? That was your inquiry question. How does it support thinking, kind of pushing the boundaries and the edges of things as well, that third horizon?
J: I think regenerative in particular, to me, and its focus on living systems, is a way of getting into systems thinking that is very practical. Because you’re literally thinking about a community, or an ecosystem, or a body.
I think social justice approaches can learn a lot from regenerative approaches, but equally regenerative approaches can learn a lot in terms of being/not being naïve, or applying to some of the structural roots… You know if you’re so busy with some of the potential that you’re missing some of the underlying structural issues. I think that’s more of a vision, where social justice, and regenerative approach to living systems has come together.
And I feel that justice, not looking at just a narrow view on single topics such as human rights, but the concept of moving towards an ever more just society is really visionary. And equally the idea of not just a stabilising, pretty mediocre, damaged planet, but really thinking about how living systems and the earth and communities can really thrive. To me it’s that level of ambition that we really need. And it’s also such a hopeful vision. I feel that in the ‘race to zero’ it can feel almost nihilistic or you’re just taking things away to get to zero. And actually, there’s such an opportunity to repair and restore and build capacity.
A: Brilliant, and so you have this seed, and then you were reflecting on it, [and knew] “there’s something in this.”
So what happened in terms of the journey that Basecamp sparked for you, and weaving in your other learnings and time by yourself. What happened after that? How did you turn something like an idea into actually a practical report?
J: Absolutely. The Business Transformation report is a huge team effort. My background is in environmental technology. And obviously, you can’t be a systemic practitioner without understanding social justice issues. But there was also a real opportunity to engage with the subject matter with experts in Forum. […which] built my understanding. Some of the approaches from Basecamp, such as [Lewis] Deep Democracy, [were essential]…
At times there were quite big differences in worldview between people internally who were working from a more regenerative practice or more from a social justice practice. And trying to hear both sides and use that Deep Democracy approach, to not just steam-roller over complaints, but really understand — what was it that was making somebody feel uncomfortable? Really listen to that, and learn from that, and build the compass in a way that could embrace that, could understand the different points of view.
I think I was tempted at times to be just like “Ahh — let’s just on! We’re gonna get this out there. You know, someone’s being difficult because they’re not agreeing. Get on board!” But actually, Deep Democracy really helps in terms of understanding — what was it that was making that person feel uncomfortable? How could we listen to that and learn from that?
I think there’s also something about the ongoing inquiry approach. I don’t feel like the report is the end of what we’re doing. This is just the first step on the journey. There is something about that approach and how we’ve engaged the industry partners. People like Nestle, Ikea, or INGKA, or Unilever, Seventh Generation. We’ve really tried to co-create this with the kinds of organisations that we think would use it. So we’re building that in, prototyping, testing and sharing learning. We tried to design the process in that kind of a way, and it’s not been perfect — there’s a lot more that we can do — but I think that definitely came from Basecamp as well.
A: Great. So yes, there’s something there, just to reflect back in terms of you’re noticing the different contributors that are coming in and support it. But also for the inquiry — there’s an ongoing, underlying inquiry approach. And then also this kind of testing, the probing, the collaborative nature of it — how do you bring in the different stakeholders and do that, facilitate that. That sounds amazing.
I guess there’s two kind of finishing questions. One will be — what do you hope businesses will do differently as a consequence of picking up this report. What’s your hope, your contribution — I know in Regenesis work they talk about — what’s your contribution to the bigger system? What do you hope it to be?
J: That’s a good question. I think we’re talking about trying to spark a critical shift to a just and regenerative mindset. So, nothing short of a paradigm change in business. And that sounds very grandiose! What was interesting is that recently we’ve been playing with the idea of a wiser approach to business. And the actual idea that a just and regenerative mindset is inherently a wiser approach than the other mindsets. That while they’ve made our current industrial society possible, fundamentally when you look at the inequality crisis, or geosphere breakdown — we’re running out of road. Sooner or later, those approaches and those mindsets, it’s clear that they’re not fit for purpose.
A: And so the product of that — mindsets, working with mindsets is quite a critical systemic way of working. A mindset shift — why is that important? What is the relationship between mindset shift and actual practice in business?
J: I think ultimately, what we’ve been talking about is that it’s not just about tinkering around the edges. It’s about transformation. And I don’t think personally that we will ever get the level of transformation that’s needed from business to address the challenges that we face without a very different mindset being embraced. And it’s uncomfortable. As we share this with businesses, a lot of the time, the language we’re using, people are just like “What? This isn’t business language!” There’s been an allergic reaction almost from some of those practitioners to some of the ways of thinking. And it’s a tension because a new mindset does bring new language, new ways of thinking about things, but also, we need to find a way of presenting that that’s authentic, but also that is approachable and that isn’t alienating people. And it’s a hard balance to strike. Something that we’ve been playing with is the idea of flagging — almost like it comes with a bit of a warning that this is a different mindset, it’s not you know, the terms may be unusual, and you may need to do a bit more work to understand it. But I think if it wasn’t getting one… sometimes I think it’s better to be getting a strong reaction than get no reaction. But that’s one of the things that we continue to explore.
A: And I think one thing, just to flip the last question — so, at the School, what do you think the School gave you? And what would you say to other people who may be from businesses that are thinking about these questions, about coming on the School? What did it give you? What would you say to others about coming on the course? What are the outcomes it gave to you?
J: I think for me, there was something really really practical about the School of System change that I really appreciated. So it wasn’t just a theory, it wasn’t just a theoretical exercise — there was lots of really helpful frameworks and theory and teaching. But it was the working in groups, applying it to a real problem, having my own question. Then it was taking this and making it real. And what I was trying to do maybe with the Business Transformation guide, was taking the same just and regenerative approach and really trying to translate that and apply that. And there’s something that I value about almost that bridging role — that it’s not just ‘here’s the theory’, it’s actually helping you to apply it in the real world. And that’s what business people need. They need that level of practicality. But simultaneously it’s stretching it — if you’re up for really opening your mind and hearing concepts that are way beyond what you may have learned in business school, I think it’s an incredible opportunity for development.
Read more about the case for Business Transformation Compass here.
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